Over Training, What, Why, When, How?

I’ve read in numerious write up’s about over training and that you should only work each body part once per week to allow the muscle to recover, on the other hand, I have read some blogs by very fit people who train twice a day 6 – 7 days per week. I am very confused about the whole matter and would appreciate some clarifaction. Thanks

Once per week? Perhaps if going to complete muscle failure, but other wise….no way. That sounds like bodybuilder stuff. “Isolate and destroy your biceps, Bro!” Yeah, thats going to help you! Unless you want to take steriods avoid the advice of bodybuilders. Right now I’m training full body three times per week, and do cardio two or three different days. I’ll be going to a system soon where I’ll train four times per week doing different muscle groups twice per week….plus cardio. I’ve been doing squats and deadlifts up to three times per week and I’m not overtrained!

Over training is what occurs when you continue to train without sufficient rest. Thus you accumulate fatigue both physically, and mentally. As you keep up the pace the fatigue eventually causes you to lose your fitness, strength, sanity, etc.

There is a lot of theory about over training, but very little that can be practically applied. There is no test for over training. And you can over train in a variety of ways. It could be that you simply are tearing the muscles down without sufficient rest. Thus you are physically not sufficiently healed. Or it could be that you’ve so fatigued your central nervous system that you’re getting emotionally run down despite being physically fresh.

It seems that the easiest way to see if your over training is to look at your strength numbers over consecutive sessions. If you’re numbers go down for three sessions in a row, then you’re most likely over training and need a break.

Depending on who you talk to you’ll hear that a full 50% of lifers are overtrained at a given time, or that only a very small percentage of elite guys are overtrained.

People tend to think that its more central nervous system related than physical, and that people have a finite and static amount of work that they can do before they exhaust this. Others say that you can expand that bank of energy, sort of like getting a bigger battery.

No one knows for sure.

But, those you see training 6-7 days per week have either worked up to that capacity, or they were born with a bigger battery so to speak. They tend to work different modalities (energy, strength, power, speed, etc.) rather than pounding away at their muscles with one type of training. And they are very serious about their recovery. They do lots of soft tissue work, massages, and stretching. They eat….a lot. They get 8 hours of sleep every night and drink tons of water.

There is a place for training muscles groups only once a week, but it is not for beginners.
Beginners should do a full body workout 3 times per week, and then progress to isolation after a couple of years. THis is of course if you are looking to body build if not then a full body workout 3 times a week is what you should do. Or like chad 4 times, working each twice. Depends alot on goals etc.

I’ve kind of lost track of the gym for a few years, and got back into it about 18 months ago, I started taking it serious about 5 months ago. I was over 17 stone and am now below 15, I was doing 5 days per week long duration c.v, mainly bike riding, about 6 weeks ago I started high intensity workouts on the rower 6 days per week for 30 mins each time, over the past 3 weeks I’ve continued with the rower and started lifting 6 days per week, and feel fine, I am splitting it Back/Bicep, Chest/Tri’s, Shoulders, Allowing 48 hr between each major muscle group. I am not working my legs as I’m very happy with them with all the exercise from the cycling. I feel fine my weights are going up and I am seeing some great results. The reason I ask about the over training is becasue I am considering stepping it up a notch I have 2 events comming up, and am trying to work out how to get the most out of the weeks I have left. I was thinking about adding 30 mins cardio to my workout of a morning on 3 days a week. I basicly want to train as much as possible without over training, I guess I’m still trying to work out my limits.

@ashtton, neglecting your legs is a huge mistake.

What sort of events are you trying to prepare for?

Also, what is your exact program?

Depending on what these events are, i would think doing HIIT would be the best option for your cardio.

“Unless you want to take steriods avoid the advice of bodybuilders. "

That’s quite the offensive statement, and i’m really surprised to hear it from you, chaddukes. We have plenty of bodybuilders on this site, and I’d expect that most of them are natural (and some of them are even vegetarians).

@ashtton, There actually is a test for overtraining, but it takes it more from the endurance sport side. With weight training, so long as you’re giving yourself at least 48 hours to rest each body part, you should be fine.

The easiest (albeit least reliable) way to watch for overtraining is to check your morning heart rate (MHR) each day before getting out of bed. (But after relaxing if your alarm clock shocks you awake.) If your MHR is higher than your baseline, that’s a possible sign that you need to take a rest.

I agree that you still want to train your legs, but you may want to go gentle at first so as not to interfere with your cycling. (I learned that the hard way.)

But, back to your initial question, you’re fine training each body part 2-3 times per week. In fact, I typically hear the once-per-week as a minimum, not a maximum. I’d be interested in seeing some of the links to the write-ups that say otherwise; I’d like to read more about their reasoning.

@witeowl: I agree that this is a pretty inflammatory statement. I should have stated that “body building programs are unlikely to work for newbies, unless they are chemically enhanced.” I didn’t say what I said with the intent of offending anyone who is into bodybuilding. I have a lot of respect for bodybuilding and it’s influence on fitness. It’s very easy to see occassions when the bodybuilding community was far ahead of the scientific community.

However…..perhaps body builders have had a little too much influence on our fitness culture. How often do you see newbies walk into the gym and take up a bodybuilding routine without having paid their dues with the basics. In other words, the protocols that advanced body builders use are becoming the same protocols that newbies are using….and are even being advised to use.

I know this because I did the exact same thing. I bought Arnold’s Modern Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding and read the whole thing cover to cover. Except I ignored the only part of the book that has any signifigance to the newbie. Thats the part where he says (and I’m paraphrasing), “If you can’t deadlift or squat 1.5 times your body weight, and can’t do 15-20 strict pull ups then you don’t have the foundation that you need to do these programs.”

If you are following a body builders split routine with isolation movements, then I can assume that you either have a great base of strength, years in the gym, and can actually make this work, or you are chemically enhanced. If you don’t fit into these two categories then I think that the average back/bi’s split type program is a huge waste of time.

Thats my feeling. Not that all body builders are on steriods. or that their is anything wrong with the way that bodybuilders train. But, that newbies aren’t going to get anything out of these programs unless they are on steriods. At least not in comparison to other programs that actually emphasize whole body training with compound lifts. And I bet Ronnie Coleman would agree with me!

There are better ways to do things. I feel strongly about this because I know how much time I wasted following these programs and getting nowhere.. It wasn’t my intent to offend. It was my intent to draw attention to ineffectiveness of what is becoming standard protocol in most gyms!

Re: Ashton’s question.

It’s harder (though not impossible) to overtrain with aerobic activity. Though, overuse injuries are actually more common. Be very conservative in how you add to your total aerobic volume. You’re smart to mix up the types of cardio that you’re doing, i.e. bike, rowing, running, etc. This will give you more cardio results with less repetitive stress.

Overtraining is far more likely to occur with anerobic activity, that is weight training, and sprints or intervals.

If you’re preparing for an Aerobic event then I would reduce your weight lifting as you get closer to the event. Bump it way up after the event, and then taper it off as you get closer to your next event. I would also avoid any type of sprints of intervals for the week leading up to the event.

Try to avoid adding something without subtracting something else. Read up on periodization.

And Nikkiboi is correct. You are doing yourself a huge disservice by ignoring weight training for your legs. After your event I would strongly encourage you to lower the aerobic volume and start doing heavy squats and deadlifts, especially single leg varieties like split squats, lunges, etc. Gaining strength, particularly in the glutes and hamstrings, will signifigantly reduce your risk of injury!

I wholeheartedly agree with chddukes on this. He is right.
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Bodybuilding has gained so much popularity that it tends to color into other fields. That is, it influences so many other aspects of fitness, non explicitly, even to the point it is getting detrimental. – For example noob athletes often use bodybuilding programs to build strength, in stead of using strength building programs. This results in building bulk and not packing strength into their kilos (body weight). Body building programs also tend to be utterly non function oriented, bad idea for performance of any sort.
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And then there is the matter of steroids. – The use of steroids in bodybuilding is prevalent. This is not a pre-judgement of any sort, it is the reality of the matter. To be successful in body building you need steroids, and this will influence intermediate bodybuilders too. You can also compare top natural bodybuilders to top bodybuilders, and note the difference. The natural body builders work their butt off, have perfect nutrition, and do absolutely everything to maximize their gains, but still there is a great difference.
The documentary: Bigger Stronger Faster, is also an eyeopener.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1151309/
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Then there is the confusion about steroid programs and non steroid programs for body building purposes. The two are totally different. If you are juced up you have amazing recovery and can absolutely hammer each muscle to hell, and still be able to recover and not over train. This is very different for guys not using steroids. Recovery becomes a huge issue, and paramount for success.
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So chaddukes is right here, and this is not at all an offensive statement, he is simply stating the reality of the matter.

I get riled up when broad, generalized statements are made. The term “bodybuilders” is rather vague and broad. Chaddukes recognized this and qualified his statement a bit more, though I still don’t agree. The funny thing is that most of the bodybuilders with whom I correspond actually push compound lifts and suggest isolation movements just to “fill in the gaps”. And yet every book I have starts with isolation and lists deads and other compound movements as “advanced”. So I wonder who I should listen to, the books or the lifters, since only the latter appear to agree with your training recommendation.
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@arnthorla: Not that I agree, but for the sake of argument: If that technique results in building “bulk and not packing strength”, then isn’t that exactly what most beginning bodybuilders want? Hypertrophy? (Again, though, it’s not like one can really “accidentally” build bulk.) I believe it’s much more likely that someone could have strength gains without getting “the look” he/she is after.

And, really, for a cyclist, I would expect you to be more careful and thoughtful when throwing around accusations about the prevalence of drugs in a sport and applying it to the whole population of athletes in that field. Stereotyping is ugly whether it’s pointed at bodybuilders, cyclists, or any other group.

chaddukes mentioned that there are no tests for overtraining . I’m not sure of that but if there are they are likely expensive and not highly accuratte. There is some physical symptoms of overtraining: lower body temperature, less sleep, higher blood pressure. These could be signs of other things that are wrong but I have found that when I measure body temperature and blood pressure the morning after an intense workout, blood pressure goes up and body temp goes down. Next day they go back to my typical levels. I suspect that if they wouldn’t return to typical levels after several days than that could be an indicator of overtraining. That plus the inability to complete your workouts.

Changes in resting heart rate also a reasonable measurement of over training, especially for endurance athletes.

I knew I was forgetting something. It was resting heart rate. I track that as well.

@witeowl
Why should I be careful whats wrong with plain speaking? Will I be banned from DaylyBurn for plain speaking?! I speak as I speak and I do not see a reason to have any fear. Because all this hush hush and don’t say anything that might ruffle a few feathers, is based on fear. And like the robed guys in StarWars said, fear leads to hate… and its true. ;) So I speak freely with out fear. – I believe it is called free speech? ;)
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I have no reason to convince you of anything. But in the biggest gyms here in Reykjavík you see lots of guys that are obviously using steroids. And in body building this is accepted. Not shouted out on city squares, but it is accepted and known. Other sports like cycling it is not accepted, but in Tour de France there is lots of drug use, it is obvious. Why deny the obvious. Lance can say all that he wants, even he as spoken of gene doping being just around the corner, and it being undetectable, as it is, and he know it will most certainly be used in sport. He also stated it that it would be a big problem. And I think he knows as well as I that when it becomes common practice, doping will be the only way to succeed in sport. And as in any competitive environment, if your opponent is taking a clear advantage over you, you will need to counter that, and that will most likely be done taking the same advantage as your opponent, namely genetic modification, or as it is now taking just enough drugs so to have the advantage but not so much as to be busted, and timing it right. – I’m sorry if I’m busting some bubble but I’m afraid this is the reality of elite sports today. :/ Peking Olympics were believed to be the the first gene doping games, and we saw some dubious record breaking, in men sprinting and men swimming. But the sprinting stood out to me. But of course I can not prove this about the Olympics, but I find it likely.
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Here in Iceland we are just racing for kicks and I hope no one has taken an unfair advantage yet. But we sure don’t test for it. But do to the common usage of steroids it would be a very simple matter to use steroids in training. But EPO and human growth that is kind of far fetched. Amphetamines have been used in cycling from the beginning, so if some one would like to use that they could. But not in professional cycling, it would be discovered.
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And about bodybuilding and strength training, this is not the same thing. I was not sure if you made that distinction there in your comment. Bodybuilders want bulk only, athletes want strength and power. This is trained differently. Compound lifts are more functional than isolation exercises but it is not in it self functional training. The body learns movements and knows nothing of muscles, so the way to build functional strength is by training movements not training muscles as such.
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You are really quick on the PC shooter. I hope you realize that I am not stereotyping, and I agree that stereotyping is distasteful. But note that I argued for my judgment, and my point stands and falls by the argument.
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What IS stereotyping however, is speaking to me as a cyclist, supposing that I should behave or have certain beliefs because I am a cyclist. That would be some sort of cyclist stereotyping, or referring to a presupposed idea of road cyclists. ;)

Ah, yes. When someone stands up against stereotyping, they are shot down as being PC. Whatever. (And my statement about you as a cyclist was me expecting you to have some empathy about overgeneralizations. My mistake.)
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Here are the facts: For every person who says that all bodybuilders dope, you’ll find one that says that all cyclists dope. The reality is that neither statement is true. Absolutes are bullshit.
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And, um, yes, I did make the distinction between bodybuilders who go for bulk vs. lifters who go for strength. That’s why I found your statement about people seemingly accidentally building bulk somewhat humorous. Never mind; I reread and now caught that you were referring to athletes who use bodybuilding programs. Sorry.
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But, whatever. Judging from the number of people supporting my side, it seems that it’s OK to bash bodybuilders here. That saddens me. Maybe I have a different definition of bodybuilding than people here. I don’t see it as being limited to the people who push it to extremes for competition; I see it as anyone who builds muscle and reduces fat for aesthetic reasons. Is there doping at the top of the sport? Probably, as in nearly all sports. But when someone makes a statement and applies it to all enthusiasts, then yes, that’s stereotyping.
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Sorry I derailed this thread. I’m out.

I’m completely with Chaddukes and Arnthrola on the issue of steroid use in bodybuilding. Do all bodybuilders take roids. No. Do the IFBB pros and other non tested federation bodybuilders take them…absolutely. If you honestly think the likes of Ronnie and Coleman and Jay Cutler don’t stack any number of Anabolic steroids you are completely deluded. Schwarzenegger freely admits to taking steroids for many years along with most the guys from his era, and he was nowhere near as big as the pros of today. Or just take one look at the natural bodybuilders compared to the pros. The natural bodybuilder trains just as hard, eat just as clean, and most likely does far more cardio and they will never ever attain the mass and size of a pro on the juice. As someone already mentioned, watch “Bigger, Faster, Stronger” for an eye opener on how rampant steroid use is todays society.

I know quite a few clean bodybuilders – a couple of them are big enough to compete at an NPC regional show and maybe have a shot at an overall title. My wife has been into bodybuilding for a number of years and I have been to several regional and national shows. In competition circles, there are basically two major organizations – the National Physique Committee (NPC) and the North American Natural Bodybuilders Association (NANBF). Each have their own pro ranks.

What is sad, is that in the amateur levels of NPC events, it is clearly obvious that to contend at any reasonably sized show (regionally speaking), you will need to be on some kind of performance enhancer to win. The difference in the kinds of athletes that show up at even small NPC events compared to NANBF events is startling. Very startling.

That being said, just as many body builders enter the lists at NPC regional shows as they do at NANBF shows. In the many shows I’ve attended, the number of competitors has been about the same for both types of events. But this is all in terms of competition. I agree with Whiteowl’s definition of a “body builder”: “anyone who builds muscle and reduces fat for aesthetic reasons.” Not all body builders are trying to win competitions. Just like not all cyclists are racing. There are plenty of very dedicated, very fit, well-trained cyclists out there who have never raced against another person or a clock. They might be training to do the Triple Bypass in Colorado, or a few centuries every year, or a big tour like RAGBRAI or the like.

So yes, I agree with Whiteowl as far as the generalization (and thereby demonizing) of body builders is wrong.

I didn’t really read in Arnthorla’s post that he was implying Armstrong doped. All he said that Lance said people will continue to dope as long as they think they can get away with it. I don’t know that any pro cyclist would say otherwise these days.

One last thing – I raced bikes for a few years, and no, they don’t do any sort of drug testing at your local races. But I don’t think that even at Cat 2 levels there is any doping. It is simply way too expensive and those folks aren’t getting paid any kind of money when they win. Even a pro cyclist in the U.S. can’t make a living racing a bike (with a handful of exceptions). But my first hand experience with amateur body builders is that, at least for a significant portion of the competition-oriented population, doing steroids isn’t all that uncommon. But as Whiteowl pointed out – for every man or woman that is competing regularly in body building shows, there are probably a half dozen or more serious “body builders” at the same gym that never do compete.

Fenrir is spot on about “Bigger, Faster, Stronger.” As far as steroid use is concerned, body builders are really the least of our concerns as a society. It is high school athletes we should be concerned about.

And now back to the topic at hand – over training.

I have gone through periods of my life where I was lifting weights primarily for strength (and never for aesthetics really). In my early years (as in high school) I trained 3 times per week, full-body. After my initial gains I plateaued and had a hard time braking the plateaus. This was mainly due to being stuck in the same routine every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. There is no doubt in my mind that, for me at least, on those Wednesday and Friday workouts I was not recovered properly. When I got to college we switched to training each muscle group twice per week, and changing the routines on a weekly basis. For me and my comrades on the football team, this plan made for continual gains throughout my 4 years at college. We would do a 4 week cycle and take a week off, then hit it again for another 4 weeks, etc.

I am of the opinion that training each muscle group once per week is not necessary. I think you can definitely train each muscle group twice per week without worrying about over training. But like anything, you need to listen to your body. For me, if I do a muscle group only once per week, I don’t feel like I am getting the progression that I want.

@witeowl
You really need to start to read more carefully before you start criticizing or pointing fingers and flinging accusations of bad conduct in peoples faces. So you have been attacking a straw man. Actually there is a fallacy that is called “the straw man fallacy” or some thing on those lines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
This is a very common fallacy.
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You made the over generalizations, I did not. I never said or implied that ALL body builders did steroids. I said that the use of steroids in body building was prevalent, and it is.
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If you reread the discussions you will find that what you have accused me of is only a figment of your own imagination. And it would not be the first time that you have done this to me. I find it rather distasteful.

Right, basically I am not training for any physical event just targets I set for myself, I’ve got a lot of public events around the end of the month I’ve decide to get a tattoo, and wanted to looked ripped , however I have over a month for the completion of that.

My training goals are to lose body fat and gain muscle tissue, I have always done a split programme, at the start of my weight training this year I did a few weeks of complete body workouts 3 – 4 times per week, however I found these taking too long.

My current training programme is for the next 6 weeks, this is why I was wandering about over training, I want to get good results in this time and then reduce my activity levels, this would however depend on my physique at that time. I am also considering a magazine spread for fitness transformation over a 12 month period, but I need to see how things go over the next 6 weeks.

I am now doing the following every day, early morning, Walk (30 mins) after work; 30 mins HIIT, evening; 30 mins swim or sit up’s & push up’s.

Weight training split chest & tri’s, Back & Bi’s, Shoulders & Legs training 6 days per week.

My diet mainly consists of chicken, pasta, tuna, cottage cheese, wholemeal bread, salad, eggs, yoghurts, wheetabix and wheat biscuits.

I also take the following supplements, lean burn, Met-rx – amped, cnp- pro recover, maximuscle – promax diet, cla caps, met-rx – tribulas.

If anyone thinks this is too much or could get better results another way, please let me know.

Thanks

I have suffered from over training in my past. It sucks. i had huge muscle loss in a very short period of time. from overtraining too much i got a virus and had to go to the doctor to get it fixed.

that’s what I’m worried about, I feel fine now, i am trying to incress my workload slowly, so I dont overstretch myself, in my youth i was a good swimmer and had to do a lot of training, I was entered in a lot of competitions, had a sponsor and was doing well with it all, I did however become a teenager I gave it all up for drink and wild nights, I am guessing that the training I did as a youngster has helped the way my body deals with exercise and training, but I’m just not sure. I do feel fine with the training but can just imagine falling to sleep and waking up to find I slept for 10 days stright.